Maligning the SEO Industry.

I`m disappointed in this article because I don`t think all of it is good advice. I`d like to discuss it during our weekly news roundup. 

Admitting a bias in that I hate to see people maligning the SEO industry, particularly when the criticism is not well-founded.  :)? Tony McCreath   To add more fuel here`s a couple of posts from John Romaine on the subject:

http://www.worksmedia.com.au/seo/seo-fatigue-dodgy-agencies-clueless-clients-enough-yet/

http://www.worksmedia.com.au/seo/1000-month-seo-what-hell-do-get-price/

And one on Yellow pages:

http://www.energise.co.nz/blog/internet-news/yellow-pages-sell-website-3-times/? Yikes, are you killing your business with this huge SEO mistake? Yikes, are you killing your business with this huge SEO mistake? katetooncopywriter.com.au Tony McCreath   To add more fuel here`s a couple of posts from John Romaine on the subject:

http://www.worksmedia.com.au/seo/seo-fatigue-dodgy-agencies-clueless-clients-enough-yet/

http://www.worksmedia.com.au/seo/1000-month-seo-what-hell-do-get-price/

And one on Yellow pages:

http://www.energise.co.nz/blog/internet-news/yellow-pages-sell-website-3-times/? Jim Munro   We can also discuss the premature demise of seofibs.com . :)? Alistair Lattimore   Which bits do you think could be improved on Jim?? John Romaine   I hope you`re referencing my articles because they`re outstanding ;0)? John Romaine   Kate Toon ? Edwin Jonk   Alistair Lattimore this article is meant to generate conversions. Just look at the links pointing to her money pages. It is quite easy to point out others are selling snake oil, but it is harder to point out your own value proposition. ? Jim Munro   Alistair, the directions given in this article are not clear, at least to me, anyway.

For example, in the first six lines, the unknowing reader could be lead to believe that it`s wrong "to install a plugin, fix your bugs, write some blogs and send a few tweets."

However on returning to it to retrieve the quote, it seems to me that it might have been recently-edited as the error is not as black and white as when I first remember seeing it.? Jim Munro   Must be something in the Sydney water, John Romaine :).? Kate Toon   I’ve debated responding to this post Jim Munro  since, it hasn’t be directly addressed to me.

But since you’re discussing my blog, and therefore my business, in a public forum I thought I’d better give my viewpoint.
 
Okay here goes.:
1)   I’m admit the post title is a little provocative, but I feel the article delivers on the promise. Not monitoring your backlinks can be a serious issue. I should know!
 
2)   Yes Edwin Jonk  the post is aimed at both education and conversion. I’d argue that all blogs on commercial websites are written in part to win new customers and there’s no harm in that.
I’d argue that most small business blogs include a link to their ‘money page’, their services or their contact page.
 
3)   There are bad SEO companies out there (just as there are good and bad plumbers, accountants and copywriters). We all know it and it’s a commonly discussed issue, not just on my website but on thousands. Helping business distinguish between the good and the bad is a positive thing no?
 
4)   The reason for the post is that I have many clients worrying they’ve dropped in the rankings and com wanting their copy rewritten when in fact, their copy is fine and the problem is being caused by poor links.
 
5)   I always work hard to ensure my argument is valid before posting. When writing this blog I chose to share some of the links in an SEO forum to double check whether their practices could be considered ‘dodgy’. The overwhelming response from SEO experts was that they were.
 
6)   I then sort to further validate my thoughts by asking Andre Weyher  to contribute
 
7)   In terms of the directions not being clear I’ve attempted to tell users
a.     Whether it’s a good or bad idea to get back links
b.     Where they can find legitimate backlink sources
c.      Why checking your back link profile is a good idea
d.     How they can tell if a site linking to them is legit or no
e.     What free and paid tools they can use to analyse their links
f.      How to write anchor links
g.     How to remove bad links
h.     How to avoid bad links in the first place
i.       Finally I offer to point them in direction of great SEO companies, I’ve previous recommended John Romaine James Norquay Aaron Agius Perry Bernard      to my clients  (as I don’t actually offer ongoing SEO services)
 
I’m genuinely interested to know what else I could add to improve the article.

8)   I think my value proposition is clear – I offer affordable SEO copywriting services and a basic SEO audit. I am clear and honest in my approach. I encourage users to Do It Themselves or at the very least understand what their SEO agency is doing. And I write blogs posts that help them do just that.
 
I hope that helps shed some light on my thinking and look forward to hearing your feedback after your SEO news roundup.? Edwin Jonk   Kate Toon a rant is a rant and it becomes dishonest if you link like that, especially with those anchor text, no?? Kate Toon   I don`t think so no.? Kate Toon   But is that your only issue with the post? That I mention my auditing service?? Jim Munro   I`d like to see you join the conversation and be able to fairly present your argument, Kate Toon .

I am gratified to see that you have edited your post. Please be assured that you would be accorded full latitude to state your position.

All opinions are valid.? Kate Toon   Hi Jim I`ve made one edit (I added `sort of` after `bullshit`) but other than that it`s as it originally was. I won`t be able to join the conversation - so  please accept the above as my argument. I`ll leave it at that if that`s okay. Super busy day today. Thanks.? Edwin Jonk   Yep, in that post you only care about yourself and you hope for some link building like Jim Munro did here. While a honest rant is about something that is wrong and the writer doesn`t really care about linking. The links have nothing to do with the article and they are useless.? Kate Toon   Wow - `in that post you only care about yourself` - that`s pretty strong!

Which links are you referring to?? Edwin Jonk   Kate I don`t mind a rant but you have to admit these do smell. Imo keep it real, be yourself and I am looking forward to your next rant.

legitimate directory sites
SEO agency? Kate Toon   Okay the Legitimate Directory sites links to a list of legitimate directory sites - so valid.
The SEO agency post links to an article about SEO agencies an dhow to tell if yours is a good one.

A rant is a writing device, and it`s really a very gentle rant :-) with lots of useful points in it.

But I appreciate your opinion - thank you? Perry Bernard   "5)   I always work hard to ensure my argument is valid before posting." and this is a point I really admire you for, Kate Toon. The most intelligent thing a person can say is "I don`t know".? Edwin Jonk   Kate with your great knowledge.... Thank you.? Jim Munro   I`m not referring only to your posts, Kate, but I don`t think posts of this type are useful to the industry or the reader. You are welcome to refer to them as "writing devices" but I think it`s just a cheap trick. Most are just noise and add to the confusion.

Case in point, if you hadn`t rewritten your opening para and changed the emphasis, in my view you would have been misleading almost all potential readers of your post.

I am sorry that you are not available for this week`s DumbSEOquestions HOA because I think it would have been a useful conversation for all parties. If you change your mind, I`ll be glad to add you to the invitation list.? Aaron Agius   I`ve re-read the post and I am at a loss as to what the issue is here.  Kate has written a good article for people new to the SEO scene where she outlines a few misconceptions and indicates the importance of monitoring your link profile to avoid penalties - something everyone in the industry is talking about and needs to be on top of.

She internally links to other posts on her site that are completely relevant to the topic and to the anchor text being used on the links.  

So what we are saying here is that someone who sells SEO and copywriting services, should not follow the advice that most of us give to clients on internal linking best practices by linking to other relevant posts within her own website?

To add to this, even if the whole post was clearly written to do nothing but presell her services (which i do not believe it is as there is plenty of good information in there for people who have no idea about how to monitor a back link profile), when did it become a problem for someone to sell something on their own website?  As far as i am concerned, Kate has provided good information for a blog post which is directed towards her target readers, and links to her services in a relevant way, which would be helpful for anyone just learning about this sort of thing that either doesn`t have the time or ability to do this work themselves.

And Jim - i have no idea what`s wrong with the first paragraph.  Kate`s statements seem correct as far as i am concerned.  Where is the issue here?? Andre Weyher   Surprised at the thread to be honest. As far as the content of the article is concerned. I`ve performed a large amount of audits of SEO agencies in the last two years in Australia and have found this to be a huge issue. A lack of transparency in their activities, often caused by their own lack of knowledge about what is and what isnt allowed by Google OR a simple lack of respect for their clients by not caring if they get penalised on the long run. I think there is a huge need for basic level education to help unknowing clients how to spot a bad agency, understanding what makes a link bad in Google`s eyes is step one. So I welcome and applaude any harsh criticism of the industry and franckly dont care if a few SEOs will feel bad because it will contribute to their demise on the long run if clients are well informed (this comment is not directed an anyone in particular by the way). Bad linkbuilding remains the Nr. 1 reason for penalties and I personally find it highly unethical that many SEO agencies (still) rely on a technique that causes their clients more harm while receiving money in the process. Of course there are loads of good agencies out there and there will always be a few bad apples that make the rest look bad, but well informed clients are a necessity if the industry were to ever be cleaned up.

As far as placing links to your own website in a blog post. I`m even MORE surprised that ANY SEO would criticize this, talk about the pot calling the kettle black! There is absolutely nothing wrong with writing posts that a) have an informative value and b) help the author rank for their important keywords. Internal linking is completely fine and one of the best ways to help you rank if you have a lot of good content. An industry criticizing an author for using whitehat techniques, while using blackhat techniques themselves every single day should take a long hard look in the mirror..

As far as sentences in the article that could have made it clearer, sure, they can always be improved on but somehow I doubt that this is about using correct wording?

My two cents :-)? Jim Munro   See above to read my explanation to Alistair, Aaron Agius . ? Jim Munro   What "threat" are you referring to, Andre Weyher ?? Andre Weyher   Whoops! haha sorry Jim Munro I meant "THREAD"! :-D? Jim Munro   :)? Aaron Agius   Jim Munro Not sure how you feel that the first paragraph was unclear.  These two sentences pretty much spell it out for me, indicating there there is a lot more to SEO than what Kate mentions in the first paragraph.:

"Unfortunately here’s much more to SEO than this.
Now I’m not saying that you don’t need to ensure your site is crawlable and technically sound."

Not everyone is going to find every post to be perfect though which is fine, I am just surprised by the number of comments and negativity towards Kate`s posts - especially by Edwin Jonk . ? Andre Weyher   Not an insignificant differance in this particular case ;-) And no, I didnt think you were planning on assasinating Kate Toon ;-D? Jim Munro   You guys are welcome to join us on Thursday night to discuss this if you have the time available. With your permission I will add you to the invitation list.? Andre Weyher   Sure thing, would be happy to!? Jim Munro   done.? John Romaine   Not sure if you`re trying to be funny or sarcastic Jim Munro ? John Romaine   Jim Munro I`ll happily sit in on this weeks Dumb SEO Questions. When is it on? How can I be notified???? Jim Munro   You are welcome, John Romaine . I`ve added you to the permanent invitation list, please let me know when you want to be taken off it.

We discuss SEO News items after the questions are answered and this number varies. If you wanted to limit your visit to just this item I`ll be able to give you an estimate of the time this article will be discussed closer to the day. We start at 10PM Sydney time and continue for two to four hours, sometimes longer.? John Romaine   Is this 10pm every night?? Jim Munro   Every Thursday night.? Jim Munro   BTW John Romaine , this will be our 90th episode. You might like to look at one of the previous episodes to see how we do things. http://dumbseoquestions.com/seo_news/? Dave Elliott   I can`t believe this article has sparked this! i smirked at the click bait title, laughed at the tabloid style first para(there is a reason why tabloids use this style, it works) read it through, decided it really wasn`t pitched at me and didn`t give it another thought until i saw the follow up article with this thread quoted!

Of course Kate Toon  is out for herself, she owns a business(or like 6 now?) she posted a blog on her business website, which is probably going to go out to her mailing list and be read by her existing and potential clients. The reason it has a more marketingy style than Edwin Jonk  is comfortable with is because that is its purpose, to market Kate`s services. She isn`t A.j kohn she isn`t dan petrovic she isn`t claiming to be moving the SEO industry as a whole forward. She has however, (presumably) decided that a couple too many of her clients have read that penguin means link building is dead, all directories are useless and that video killed the radio star, so has decided to write about it.

If she had posted it up on a load of seo forums/communities etc I would kinda understand this grinding gears, but she didn`t, so I don`t get why this is a thing. Its a piece that sells herself, her services and provides her presumably lacking in any real seo knowledge clients a bit of useful information without giving away the keys to the store.

I don`t get the problem.? Jim Munro   There`s a followup article? Is there a link you can lend me, Dave Elliott ? :)? Dave Elliott   http://www.katetooncopywriter.com.au/maligning-the-seo-industry/ ? Jim Munro   That`s funny, Dave Elliott , thank you. :)

Apparently Kate doesn`t have a good memory because in her fourth comment on this thread she asserts that she had made only one edit subsequent to my reading of the article yet in the comments of her later article she details three lines edited to Alistair. I think the second two of those three lines were actually added and other edits might have been made throughout the article but I`m happy to give Kate the benefit of the doubt. :)

I cannot complain now. If Kate had originally written the article as it appears in it`s current form, I would have been happy to ignore it.? Add a comment...